tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3767755611010523671.post6887708097487621675..comments2023-04-10T04:06:30.195-06:00Comments on Think and Wonder. Wonder and Think...: Mythbusters: Hell is UnlovingDoOrDoNothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15775977854913362396noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3767755611010523671.post-25913624997814611872012-04-05T13:23:13.476-06:002012-04-05T13:23:13.476-06:00He Is Sailing,
Your comment made me think of the ...He Is Sailing,<br /> Your comment made me think of the cartoon created by nonstampcollector called quiz show (Bible contradictions). The third question to the contestants addresses the saved by works/grace passages. It's quite humorous.<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk<br /><br />I'm not sure if church of Christ belief on this doctrine would be considered orthodox as I reflect on what you wrote. I don't remember hearing a consistent message about being saved through the exclusive grace of God. It was always "Jesus death cleanses you of your sin, but only if you are baptized and then live according to his will." It's a very Arminian belief system. I never felt much grace in the sermons. I think that's a common experience for my denomination.DoOrDoNothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15775977854913362396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3767755611010523671.post-24873182467564341372012-04-03T19:50:49.564-06:002012-04-03T19:50:49.564-06:00DoOrDoNot, I bring up that distinction, not becaus...DoOrDoNot, I bring up that distinction, not because I think that your minister does not understand his own orthodoxy. I am sure that he does. Rather, it is that he cannot handle his own orthodoxy. His argument that Hell is Just because it applies final Human justice on Human actions only works if he denies salvation by the exclusive grace of God through the sacrifice of Jesus. In other words, his argument only works if he momentarily becomes a heretic. Truly orthodox beliefs nullify any justice on the part of God. It is based purely on Divine Justice, aka Grace, aka the whim of God. There is no human justice involved. Orthodoxy demands that Hell has nothing to do with human justice. <br /><br />But like most Christians, your minister cannot handle that. God’s Divine justice is savage to our modern, human tastes. It is barbarous. It is arbitrary. So your minister, like most Christians, make it more palatable by claiming that God is the final equalizer after death where all human wrongs will be righted and all criminals will receive their ultimate punishment. But to argue this way is to deny their own beliefs.HeIsSailinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09154368305822276669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3767755611010523671.post-28760308528707778302012-04-02T22:08:23.179-06:002012-04-02T22:08:23.179-06:00HeIsSailing,
Yes, there's a continual tension ...HeIsSailing,<br />Yes, there's a continual tension between salvation by works and salvation by grace, esp in my faith tradition. It's abit like reconciling the 100% human, 100% divine nature of Jesus.DoOrDoNothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15775977854913362396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3767755611010523671.post-74752578387681380702012-04-01T21:55:35.392-06:002012-04-01T21:55:35.392-06:00should be "therefore making us sinners – no!&...should be "therefore making us sinners – no!" sorryHeIsSailinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09154368305822276669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3767755611010523671.post-13948025046236779722012-04-01T21:54:08.717-06:002012-04-01T21:54:08.717-06:00DoorDoNot says:
“The minister flipped around the a...DoorDoNot says:<br />“The minister flipped around the argument about hell being unloving and contended that the severity of hell proves the love of God because injustice in the world will one day be avenged. God is not indifferent to the cries of the innocent. Those who have been harmed will ultimately be vindicated instead of insulted once again by finding themselves standing next to their oppressor in heaven.”<br /><br /><br />This argument makes it obvious to me that your minister cannot handle his own orthodoxy. I always thought that the point of divine justice was not human actions, but whether or not we had our sinful nature justified by the salvific blood of Jesus Christ. Christians are always quick to point out that it is not our human actions that save us, neither is it our human actions that condemn us. We do not commit sins, therefore making us sins – no! We sin because we are sinners. It is our nature. The human victim of an oppressive act will go to Hell as fast as the most sadistic criminal if that victim did not have their sins washed by the blood of the Lamb. Further, the oppressor of that sinful victim may later repent and achieve salvation to live in eternity in Glory with Jesus Christ, while his sinful victim spends that same eternity burning in a lake of fire.<br />Christians who attempt to mitigate horrors of contemplating God’s arbitrary whim by making Hell an instrument of human justice are hiding the fact that a human’s destiny to Salvation or Damnation are the exclusive result of God’s divine grace. According to the Christian’s own orthodoxy, neither has anything to do with any human work.HeIsSailinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09154368305822276669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3767755611010523671.post-57743352411231833072012-03-26T09:19:06.782-06:002012-03-26T09:19:06.782-06:00Sabio,
I looked briefly at the Teaching by cards y...Sabio,<br />I looked briefly at the Teaching by cards you referenced. Yes, that does look exactly like what I was taught as a child. It even looks like similar materials, given that it was created in 1980 and probably not modified or updated before being put online. Suffice it to say that I see things very differently than the what is taught in the "cards."DoOrDoNothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15775977854913362396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3767755611010523671.post-11541380802995794742012-03-26T04:43:17.798-06:002012-03-26T04:43:17.798-06:00We have one in town -- but no, I wasn't too fa...We have one in town -- but no, I wasn't too familiar.<br />I did visit the main site. <br />The "Teaching By Cards" stuff is fun:<br />http://www.theancientplan.com/reference.html<br />maybe other readers would love it.Sabio Lantzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12963476276106907984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3767755611010523671.post-24668609505360418222012-03-26T00:01:35.605-06:002012-03-26T00:01:35.605-06:00Good to see you again. Hope all is well.Good to see you again. Hope all is well.DoOrDoNothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15775977854913362396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3767755611010523671.post-5267093452168274312012-03-26T00:00:42.791-06:002012-03-26T00:00:42.791-06:00I'll check out your post. Thanks.
I have read...I'll check out your post. Thanks. <br />I have read several Lewis books, though it's been years. I've actually had in mind to go reread him.<br />I attend the church of Christ. Are you familiar?DoOrDoNothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15775977854913362396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3767755611010523671.post-87325644217861733672012-03-25T23:59:11.355-06:002012-03-25T23:59:11.355-06:00Maybe I'll share at some point. We just change...Maybe I'll share at some point. We just changed churches so I don't really know this preacher. I have shared with other sheep though :)<br />Bahhh.DoOrDoNothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15775977854913362396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3767755611010523671.post-29931705150250134142012-03-25T23:57:51.965-06:002012-03-25T23:57:51.965-06:00Yes, I think it' wise to be tentative about th...Yes, I think it' wise to be tentative about the unseen. I believe his authoritative demeanor comes from his firm belief that scripture is all from God.DoOrDoNothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15775977854913362396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3767755611010523671.post-40525101827651302202012-03-25T08:14:44.879-06:002012-03-25T08:14:44.879-06:00The minister flipped around the argument about hel...<i>The minister flipped around the argument about hell being unloving and contended that the severity of hell proves the love of God because injustice in the world will one day be avenged.</i><br /><br />I love the way they flip from the active voice in "God loves the sinner" to "sin will be avenged" as if hell was beyond anyone's control.Vinnyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08955726889682177434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3767755611010523671.post-40473717743195911152012-03-25T05:03:10.659-06:002012-03-25T05:03:10.659-06:00If God proves out to actually be a squirrel and de...If God proves out to actually be a squirrel and demands we worship his nuts in order to avoid damnation, I am all ready to repent. I hope I will be forgiven. :-)<br /><br />On a serious note: CS Lewis, as you probably know, what a heretic of sorts. Many Evangelical Christians dislike him for his inclusivist view of salvation. He has a theory in his <i>Mere Christianity</i> where Buddhists are saved and in his <i>The Last Battle</i> from his Narnia series where an enemy of Aslan (Temeth) are accepted by Aslan at the disgust of several Aslanites. <a href="http://triangulations.wordpress.com/2011/12/23/does-jesus-save-buddhists/" rel="nofollow">See my short post here</a>.<br /><br />What is your denomination? Have you read Lewis?Sabio Lantzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12963476276106907984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3767755611010523671.post-82207040169212486362012-03-25T03:59:00.990-06:002012-03-25T03:59:00.990-06:00If you get a chance to write a "About Me"...If you get a chance to write a "About Me" post and link it in your side bar, it would be good for visitors to understand who is writing this blog. Just a suggestion.<br /><br />Well, I could tell you I heard it from the FSM who hinted at the smell of sulfur awaiting you if you don't.<br /><br />It is a shame your preacher never gets to read these. Religion may change more quickly if the sheep did not keep silent.<br /><br />Bahhhh :-)Sabio Lantzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12963476276106907984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3767755611010523671.post-56906013997477415432012-03-23T17:59:33.718-06:002012-03-23T17:59:33.718-06:00The gall of someone lecturing about a place they h...The gall of someone lecturing about a place they have never visitled, let alone seen. Best case scenario, it is heresay. Worst case, they are just using their own imagination. I reserve the right to disregard all of it having no first hand experience of my own.Doug Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18027574195522869708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3767755611010523671.post-10166752886384776112012-03-23T13:29:43.304-06:002012-03-23T13:29:43.304-06:00The wise fool,
Oh no! Now we are back to a litera...The wise fool, <br />Oh no! Now we are back to a literal hell that burns with hydrogen. :)<br /><br />You can certainly find support for annihilation in the Bible, but there's also support for eternal and finite punishment. So take your pick I guess. Another reason to look at evidence beyond the Bible.DoOrDoNothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15775977854913362396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3767755611010523671.post-61651697766775058092012-03-23T05:09:02.420-06:002012-03-23T05:09:02.420-06:00Well said, and this is such a problem that various...Well said, and this is such a problem that various theologians have proposed alternatives to fire-and-brimstone, eternal-punishment Hell, such as annihilationism. However, I think that has more to do with what we would want to be true as opposed to being based on what the Bible says.<br /><br />By the way, your minister was not correct in another way. Not all fires burn with visible light. Hydrogen fires, for example, can burn invisibly.TWFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06016277303703254572noreply@blogger.com